The Thinking Man's Debate

The Thinking Man's Debate
Many postings are talikng about only the superficial aspects of illegal/legal immigration, and most eventually crumble into a pot of bigotry and racism. Let's get a discussion going about the real issues of why this important topic is so difficult to tackle. Bring your educated views and back them up with fact so readers can learn about the REAL problem, and hopefully provide some REAL answers.

From rwh68 on 2004-01-04 01:52:49 - recs (84)
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anonymous on 2004-01-19 10:58:00 wrote:
Tancredo is right in saying that this is an affront to our laws, and he is also against guest worker programs. I am also firmly against them as well. The whole argument that immigrants take jobs that others wont take is BS to me when unemployment is hovering at about 6 percent. Sure they are taking jobs that no one wants, because they are getting paid dirt. This is neither the immigrant or the citizens fault. It is big businesses fault. They create the supply and demand to an extent. If employers were forced to pay better wages and stop cutting costs on the worker side then it might take pressure off the border. Not to mention that the penalties that are applied to these big businesses, for example wall mart- are not large enough to act as a dterminant. Heres why- if you are paying people dimes on the dollar and denying them overtime and benefits- you are saving a lot of money as opposed to work accomplished. Not to mention that business execs have it figured out that if and when they are caught- the penalty will not exceed the money saved by hiring the illegals in the first place. If you can save ten grand over an amount of time by hiring illegals, then get caught and pay nine back- you have still run the business efficiently. This all leads to the correct place of blame- big business- and polititions who cater to it. You see to me- the wall mart thing is just an example that the dept of homeland security can use to defend their lax efforts. It is a political posturing to lead the populus to assume that we are taking the necessary steps, when in effect they are not. Wall mart will not be hurt by their actions. As Im sure you knew already. Big business and government are in bed. And that is on the left and the right, with the emergance of the neo conservatives who counteract any real progess. And Mcain, hatch, and cornyn and all the other fake republicans who sell out their constituences are great examples. Tancredo lacks some of the environmental ideals i claim, yet he is an honest republican and a breath of fresh air. It is tough being an environmentally concerned conservative- and many believe they are incompatable. Which i of course disagree- yet understand all the same. My environmental side is often construed as liberal democratic- my domestic and foreign policy beliefs leaning republican conservative, and social views middle road. Yet it must be understood that these classifications should be meaningless. The parties are so damn simillar these days anyway. Oh well the republicans are against abortion and the democrats arent- theres a real division- yeh right its a moral judgement with few political implications. Furthermore look at border politics- both sides want guest worker programs and open borders. No wonder unions are courting illegals these days, why not considering the fact that both parties are in favor of cheap labor open borders and the American worker is a ghost. So you see i praise people like TANCREDO FOR THEIR HONESTY AND ABILITY TO DIFFERENTIATE THEMSELVES FROM THE PACK. There is now more then ever a need for a third, fourth and fifth party because politics is failing to do its job. Why is it the last few sessions very few important laws or issues have been passed or discussed albeit congressional raises. MAn i am totally disgusted with things and it makes me feel like a damned liberal to say so. But nonetheless, think how hard it is to pick a presidential candidate for me. An environmental conservative? I have a better chance of winning the lottery. But at least i have my dollar and dream.
anonymous on 2004-01-19 11:00:00 wrote:
I am so frustrated with the idiotic babble you people spit on the pages of this site. And that goes for both sides, the open borders lobby, and the immigration reductionists. You people are caught up in the first stage of development. It is apparent that there are differences of opinion here, since this is a touchy issue. Yet you all reduce yourselves to children, bickering over minute, unimportant aspects of this debate. The right way to go about discussing immigration is to stay away from stereotypes, move away from opinions, and stick to the facts. Now it is evident that illegal immigration and mass legal immigration have some detrimental effects on American society. These include: an increased tax burden to help reduce the strains that illegal immigration is putting on our social welfare and health care systems. over crowding in schools where immigrant numbers are concentrated. Depressed wages and job losses for American workers who cannot and will not compete with extremely cheap labor. Decreased representation in government for American citizens as representation is often based on population of areas -and illegal immigrants are also counted in census statistics. And last but not least illegal immigration makes it harder to provide good national security and fight terrorism.
Now, with that being said, there must also be compassion in the voice of reason. These people are human beings, not animals. They are unfortunate in that their government is corrupt and does not take care of them -eventhough they have a booming tourism economy and vast oil supplies. They are the worlds ninth largest economy. It is sad there are no jobs or opportunities. But compassion without responsibility is a dangerous thing. Opening our border is not the answer. Although big business might disagree, becuase they exploit these unfortunates to fatten their pockets.
Nevertheless, we must understand the situation these people are coming from. But we must also realize that by just letting these illegals in, we are not only rewarding illegal behavior but we are giving Vicente Fox a safety valve. One that keeps him from trult combatting the failures of his administration. There is an ever growing population boom going on down there that is not being adressed. Their is corruption at every level of their government and executive branch. And much to the dismay of the masses, there is a very small amount of Mexicans with a lot of money, that suck their people dry.
Now, back to the compassion without responsibility thing. We as Americans must look out for eachother first. Then we can take on as many as is possible without sinking the lifeboat. If that sounds too hard line then tough. It is the way of the world. Mass immigration has the ability to drain our resources and damage our environment if unchecked. It decreases living standards for our citizens, and leaves us vulnerable to crime and drug trafficing.
If change is to occur in Mexico, its not gonna be from people leaving and coming here. It is a bandaid on a fatal wound. SOmetimes, as it has been shown throughout history, there is a need for revolution. Yet again, sorry, but this is just how it is. STOP EXPLOITING YOURSELVES.
FInally, move the debate away from ignorance. Talk about overpopulation, talk about politics, talk about big business and its cruelties. Talk about exploitation and mis representation. But most of all talk with respect. Now im not the political correctness police, in fact i think PC is another ill of society which weakens race relations by masking the truth, but I mean come on. I have written from the heart, yet i fear you will not listen. And in doing so, you only make it so much easier for the other side to hate. Step it up America, get involved, vote, do something about what bothers you. Stand up for yourselves, have and opinion - but do it the right way.
anonymous on 2004-01-19 11:00:00 wrote:
hey, these are some new postings ive made, wasnt sure if you had read them. Keep the debate going in the right direction, no pun intended.
Rwh68 on 2004-01-20 09:16:00 wrote:

Yea, I've been gone for a while, but I have been keeping up on what's been posted. Nothing has changed with this board much, still the same verbage. Like I have said before, and I see you have endorsed, the problem of ILLEGAL immigration starts in Mexico. Our inability to control it is found in laws, that even if enforced to the letter, still have no teeth because of the multitude of exemptions and waivers that exist to nearly every violation of those laws. Read the INA (Immigration and Nationality Act) located in Title 8 of the United States Code and you'll see what I'm talking about. These laws were enacted without the forethought of what a mass invasion of illegals would do to this countrys' population, environment, economy, etc. Sure, amendments have come down and some laws have been strengthend, but the fact still remains. There are just TOO many ways, legally, to circumvent the punishments that can be exacted by the enforcement of these archaic laws. When they were written, America WAS in need of foreign labor to compliment the work force. Thus, Immigration law was fashioned in such a way to make it harder to enforce to the letter. This standard has been purposely maintained in recent years simply because buisness has seen the advantages of this lower wage pool of available workers. It's business 101...lower wages mean higher profits. We live in a society based on capitalism, what more can I say. It seems that our own desire for free enterprise, trade and personal enrichment may, in fact , be our own downfall. What you must remember though, is that the independence of the American company was something the founding fathers saw as necessary for a free society. That freedom has resulted in company outsourcing of jobs and manufacturing and insourcing of workers to perform local jobs at lower wages, thus increasing company profits and bottom-lines. I see the problems it creates for Americans because it puts those of us needing jobs in direct competition with foreigners needing jobs. The obvious problem is that foreigners are willing to work for sometimes half of what we are, thus driving down wages. They survive on those wages here in the United States by choosing to live with less than we are willing to. Some don't survive on the wages and are forced to supplement their lives with social programs such as WIC, etc.
The key is this, we, as middle class Americans, have, for the most part, grown up in a middle class family, gone to relatively decent schools, lived in middle class homes in middle class neighborhoods and have grown acustomed to that. When someone from another country, who comes from oppression and poverty, arrives here, they see our middle class as their arrival to the big time. Most middle class families in America would be considered well off in some other foreign country, such as Mexico. When the average single family home in southern California costs $375,000.00, you can see what is considered middle-class. I don't know about you, but I have a good job that pays well and I wouldn't even consider buying a house in that price range! Half of my monthly salary would go just to pay the mortgage, and frankly, I can't afford that. So we are left to settle with less, which is not what we are used to because of the conditions in which we were raised. The foreigner arrives, is paid half of what we are for our job, lives in an area we call ghetto and thinks he or she has made it to the big time! It's all about perceptions. Kind of like the saying, one mans trash is another mans treasure. They come from nothing so they only have everything to gain. We come from having and, thus, are constantly loosing. The true fact remains that some immigrants, whether well intentioned people or not, DO in certain circumstances, lower the standard of living. It is not an intentional or malicious act, it is inevitable under these circumstances. The problem is that you cannot LEGISLATE how people live. There is no way to LEGALLY make someone think that their standard of living is not up to what the rest of America thinks it should be. The cultural differences are apparent as well. We as Americans, are a promotion -driven society. We always want more than what we have and are never satisfied. There is always more that we can do, more money to be earned, a higher position to strive for. In other countries, some people feel they have reached the pinnacle when all of the kids have their own bed to sleep in (or a bed at all!) and that the family eats every night. When this type of cultural idealology is imported to the US, it affects our social landscape. Those standards are not even questions for most Americans. We consider our lives normal and middle class when all of our kids not only have their own bedrooms, but also their own TV, telephone, DVD player and computer. While I realize this is not true for EVERY American, it is what we strive for. I think the difference between the cultures is obvious. But, again, you can't legislate that type of life on everyone or expect that someone to want the same things you do. In essence, you can't legislate happiness (or the pursuit of it!). Placing restrictions on big business won't work either because it goes against the very framework of capitalism and free enterprise. The only thing left is to tug at the moral strings of these companies and to show what effect their practices are having on our social tiers. But remember, you are basically asking big business to cut into their profit margins to save the "American way of life". Let me repeat that, "Give up money so I can have what I am used to." Good luck. They'll say, "That's right, this IS America, go get your own!" Harsh, but true and fully supported in the constitution. The government does, constitutionally, have the right (and moreso the responsibility) to regulate foreign commerce (Sect. 8 paragraph 3). It's HOW that commerce is regulated that is the key. The devil is always in the details. Obviously, with laws enacted in regards to Immigration and business and how the two inter-relate, you can see where the government stands. Until special interest groups and lobbies are outlawed and banned, I would expect more of the same-ol'-same-ol'!

Another subject which you may not be aware of is the recent shift in focus of those charged with protecting our Nations' borders and enforcing the laws. Recently, at the graduation of Class #560 from the US Border Patrol Academy in Charleston, SC, a speechwasa given by Deputy Commissioner Browning of the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. The following is an exact quote from that speech:

"Your priority mission as officers in the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection is absolutely and unequivocally clear:

"Detecting and preventing terrorists and terrorists weapons from entering the United States, while facilitating the orderly and efficient flow of legitimate trade and people at and through our Nation's borders."

If you read those words and take to heart what they say, one thing is obvious: Enforcement of the IMMIGRATION laws of the US is NOT a priority within the Border Patrol anymore. The Border Patrol is the uniformed law-enforcement arm of the CBP. If the Deputy commisioner is stating that their priority mission is the detection and prevention of terrorists and terrorist weapons through the border, I guess that leaves illegal aliens second on the list.

The focus has changed. GW has offered up this plan which, in the fine print and between the lines, will ultimately be nothing more than a veiled amnesty. I don't see it passing Congress anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it that much. In fact, I don't think Bush thinks it will pass either. Fluff during a campaign year and a passifier for Vicente. If Immigration is placed on this level (fluff and passifiers) in the hierarchy of priorities for this nation, I wouldn't expect to see any substaintial change anytime soon. The agencies that were tasked with the enforcement of the Immigration laws have been redirected to focus on terrorism. It's the NEW problem. Look at the candidates for the Democratic nomonation and how much time they have devoted in thier platforms to Immigration in its pure form: Practically none! It's all about the war in Iraq and getting Osama bin Laden. I, too, feel that these issues are important, but seeing as though I work for what once was the Immigration and Naturalization Service, I can tell you that our focus isn't on immigration or especially illegals anymore. Its a sad day for the'ers, simply because the valid arguments are currently falling on deaf ears. Take a number, we'll call you soon.

RWH68- NICE POST on 2004-01-20 18:45:00 wrote:
I guess we can all agree, our government in its lack of taking our immigration laws seriously, is commiting TREASON. Its their job to protect us, have controlled, legal immigration, and look out for the common good of Americans. They have failed big time.

The Southland is turning into a third world country, so we are thinking of moving. We just left our "gated community" for an older one-story lifestyle (big lot), and the home next door is a boarding house for illegals. Counties and cities are changing their over-crowding laws to accomodate the illegals. Its a shame.

Tom Tancredo (R-CO) is getting my vote for president. He's a true American Statesmen. He also wants controls on H1-B Visas and Outsourcing of skilled jobs overseas. RWH68, I respect your post.
Rwh68 -Times are in need of help! on 2004-01-21 00:14:00 wrote:
I agree with your post, but when you have runaway capitalism, and American/Multinations, getting huge tax cuts and corporate welfare, they should have guidelines on employment requirements. Unfortuantely, its come down to checks and balances in corporate hiring poilicies. I am not a "globalist" and don't look at countries as "markets" only. I object to the cheap labot market, the illegals, H1-B visa programs, and outsourcing are creating. Its a race to the bottom! America is being flooded in cheap labor, jobs are disapearing, and our standard of living is tanking. The pattern is not good.

I would like to see macro controls on corporations by Congress. And I want to see micro controls by self policing and corporations to stop all this bottom feeding.

Our government's job is to protect us Americans, control its borders, and Congress is part of the solution. They unfortuantely have been part of the problem, as it stands right now. NAFTA wasn't written with enough protections.

I am reading one of Thomas Sowell's books on Economics. (Hoover Institute-Standford)He's a Globalist, a country is just a market variety. He's a "free market" kind of guy, and although fasinating, he's way out of touch. Academia is his world. I see the affects of capitalism without a moral compass running amuck. Bad news!

Are you aware, Radiologist are being fired in the USA, and replaced in India, with data sent from India by their doctors. Attorneys, Paralegals,Dentists,Nurses, Teachers, Engineers,on and on, and on.... This is scary stuff.

And the government should not spoon feed us everything, I agree, but they need to keep us from the globalist's destruction of our standard of living.

The scarier of the globalist believe in a One World Government. Holy Moly. I like what Reagan said (paraphasing) the same government that supplies you everything, can take away everything. America is so screwed up right now, we're way off a good path to a bright future. Your reply....
Fannieskid on 2004-01-28 02:39:00 wrote:
Ah, remember when you could go to a fast food resteraunt, (Sorry can''t seem to spell tonite), and actually order what you wanted? Now all you can do is point at a board with a number. Heaven help you if you want something extra.
Migra Girl on 2004-01-28 10:15:00 wrote:
And heaven help you if you don't speak Spanish.
Rwh68 on 2004-02-03 23:04:00 wrote:
MIgra girl:

Then learn how to speak Spanish. I promise that no one will call you a Mexican sympathizer.....and you'll get your order right the first time.
jon on 2004-02-25 17:51:00 wrote:
I think there's a lot of truth to the issues raised by rhw 68 however, there are some points which bother me, it still sounds to me like the standard of living is not being lowered by immigrants (another strong point is that people seem to forget that there are other countries bellow Mexico whose citizens come here illegaly too) but by the us goverment and the fact that it's chosen to spend money on the military rather than it's citizens, it's chosen to go to a 80 billion dollar war, and now is rolling America back to a new kind of cold war without any specific enemies, i agree, illegal immigration is wrong, but look at the social inequeties that cause it, the Mexican goverment is certainly corrupt however you must not brand Vicente Fox who is what you could call an "Opossition party member" as president he can only do so much with the rotten infrastructure he is given, the problems in Mexico come from over 50 years under the thumb of it's most corrupt political party that has been very recently ousted, i don't think it's up to the united states to go in guns blazing and stablish political guidelines for a foreign country, just think how many other countries (Like Canada) could then come here and demmand that the US established global health coverage for it's citizens, i do think however that instead of just targeting the illegal immigrants as a problem we target the people that knowingly and willingly exploit these immigrants for personal gain. It's not the random farmer anymore, we're talking about large multinational corporation (the recent wal-mart scandal ilustrates my point),therefore, if we first look inward to solve our issues, then outward i believe the problems can be better dealt with, if never resolved (let's face it everyone wants to go to the head of the empire, this is nothing new), oh, and for the person that made the "boarding house for immigrants" comment, i would say this; brown skin and spanish speaking does not a illegal immigrant make, there thousands of US citizens who are spanish speaking and of a darker skin tone, and also maybe it's just me, but tancredo's retoric reaks of veiled bigotry, I insist on integration to a community, i think it's an important part of building a stronger populace, however, the things this man speaks of such as "detrimental effects of radical multiculturalism" sound off alarms in my head for some reason or another.
~!!~ on 2004-02-27 00:30:00 wrote:
It doesn't matter how nice an illegal might be or how cheap they will work. It doesn't matter if they have been here illegally for one week or one decade. If they sneak across the border, they have committed a crime under our laws and are subject to immediate deportation.

These illegals are not "immigrants" or "undocumented workers," they are illegal aliens. They enter this country by breaking our law. They have no right to any constitutional protections. The only thing illegal aliens should expect from their criminal entry into these united States is deportment.
rwh68 on 2004-03-11 20:20:00 wrote:

Just wanted to let you know I still read the posts, just have been a little pre-occupied with some other issues lately. I read what you wrote and need to correct you on one point. Yes, the PRI was ousted from the presidency in Mexico by Fox and his PAN party. But the problem is that most of the Mexican Council (equalivent to our Congress) is STILL PRI!!! They have been "fillabustering" everything Fox has attempted to do to bring change to the economic problems in Mexico. Fox is , basically, just a talking head and holds no real force for change in Mexico. Mexico is still the "same old Mexico" it has always been. The council still holds the power to effect and administrate change for its people. Until the council lines up with the president, nothing will change in Mexico's economy and the floods will continue. Bush, by the way, is not helping any with his amnesty proposals and his loosening of border security for Mexican border crossers. The DHS's primary mission is no longer illegal immigration. Get used to that folks, effectively, illegal immigration is NO LONGER A PRIORITY for those charged with enforcing those laws. The INS DOES NOT EXIST ANY MORE!! We were absorbed into the DHS and into the Burear of Customs and Border Protection. This includes the Border Patrol, wh's primary mission is NO LONGER THE DETECTION, DETERRANCE AND APPREHENSION OF ILLEGAL ALIENS. You think I am kidding? Sorry, no jokes here! Their primary mission is the detection of terrorists and WMD! With the passage of the Homeland Security Act, Bush effectively and LEGALLY put illegal immigration on the back burner. It was never a serious topic but, because we had the INS, was a topic that was forced to be entertained. Now, with the formation of DHS and its mission adjustment, it can be a topic of choice rather than a topic of force to all politicians. Sorry folks, never more than now, has the subject of illegal immigrants crossing the border fallen on ears more deaf. Welcome to the NEW America.
1800BanIllegals on 2004-03-17 13:59:00 wrote:
From the Atlanta Journal Constitution:

Law enforcement authorities are searching for a previously deported undocumented immigrant suspected of fatally shooting his wife Tuesday in their Duluth area apartment. Late Tuesday, Gwinnett Police were asking other agencies for help in locating Anastsio Jaines, who fled in a large blue Dodge Durango truck.

"They just come here for a better life."
"They're here to do the jobs Americans won't do."

Yeah. Right!!!!!

Jon on 2004-04-02 15:23:00 wrote:
RWh 68:

Yes, that is a good point, but in a way it is very much like what I was saying, Fox can only do so much with the INFRASTUCTURE.
As it pertains to the focus on terrorism I believe that as things settle down, this will slowly (if not entirely) turn back to the usual state of affairs (the enforcement of laws in the US México border).
But my concern lies elsewhere, all along the boards I have seen a lot of hate against the illegal immigrants, and a large section of these people say things like "Well, if they were only legally here, I wouldn’t be so upset." when the fact is that these people lack the resources to make any claim to legal status in the US (RWh, you know what I mean) these people have a enough trouble scrapping together a few bucks in their own country. Let alone the multitude of requirements that the US asks of people who would legally come here (who in the end, are for the most part, better of than most in Mexico). Now, don't misunderstand me, I can see that they are breaking the law, and I can also see how this upsets people, however. I can also relate to why they do it ( I really don't think that they have any evil intent, for the most part they just want to feed their families) it's not even about a better life, it's about a life. They come from a standard of living which we cannot begin to imagine. This brings me to:

A) why are people so upset about illegal immigrants taking their jobs, for my part, I’m
A lot angrier at the people that employ them (abusing the fact that these people cannot
Legally ask for what an average American would) and pocket the savings for
Themselves, it's not that the illegals are taking away our jobs, employers are willingly
(and maliciously) giving them away.

B) Culturally speaking, I've met a lot of people from Mexico, El Salvador, Argentina Etc,
The people that illegally cross the borders are for the most part (I would venture a
Guess of about 80%) completely uneducated, some of them barely know the Spanish
Language (there's Native Americans over in the rest of the continent too you know)
Judging an entire set of cultures on their destitute sounds more than unfair, it sounds
Insane, If I went to a place where I knew I would find uneducated white people, or
Black people, then based my opinions on the whole race upon these few examples, the
Result would be more than a little biased; sure there are some of these people that are
Loud and obnoxious...even dangerous!!!, but ask yourselves, do you know of white
People that share these traits? How about Black people? Jews? why of course,
because it's human nature, not corresponding to one specific race or another.

C) There has been a lot of discussions amongst me, my friends and some people of the
Forum. In part because of statements like "the you see some wetback driving a 30,000
TONE DO NOT AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT MAKE!!!! The people you refer to
can be legal citizens for ages, and still retain their language and culture while
embracing this country as their own (For recent examples just go look at a list of those
fallen in Iraq.)If we go down the path of stereotypes and namecalling we will never
understand what's wrong.

D) There's a lot wrong with the country these days and truth of the matter is that Illegal
Immigration has little (Very little) to do with the problem, I have said before (and if
I’m wrong, please tell me) whenever an empire is formed, migration to it (legal or
illegal) is inevitable. The consequences of this are:
• Increased populace
• Ethnic diversity
• Race intermixing
• Cultural development
• Cultural Tensions
• Racial Tensions
To think that the US should be exempt of that is a nice idea, but a fallacious one nonetheless. The US has taken head of the World, Let’s not mince words here, Terms like “leaders of the free world” and statements like “…Either with us or against us” are not just Carte Blanche to do as we would please, they have an inherent set of responsibilities and consequences that most people in this country seem less than enthusiastic about facing, and scapegoating all our anxieties, insecurities and problems on a specific sector of our populace seems an easy answer, but is nonetheless wrong, and will only lead us in the end, down a path of self destruction.
RWH68 on 2004-04-22 02:17:00 wrote:

You've made very good points. The simple fact is this...most illegal Mexicans are here to work hard and to get "a life" as you put it. Most are not terrorists or subversives and are just trying to earn a few dollars. The devil is always in the details though, and this is where I think you are lacking the critical thought in all of this.

1. There is a stong and growing opposition, especially in the southwest, to ALL illegal aliens. I lived on the border for five years and saw what happens when the line between America and Mexico is allowed to be blurred. The boundary between Mexico and the US looses it's significance as more of our laws are broken, allowed to be broken or simply not enforced. In turn, this becomes a soft spot than then can be exploited by those truly wishing us harm. All those charged with maintaining the sovreignty of that border get laxed and complacent in their drive. Other things begin to suffer and erode with time as well. Assimilation into our way of life slowly goes by the wayside and the area basically becomes an extension of the country from which the people are coming. Now if these areas were uninhabited and relatively unsettled, it probably wouldn't draw too much attention. But the simple truth is that these areas are inhabited, and have been for many years by true, blue Americans. When immigration and population levels aren't closely monitored and new influxes of immigrants aren't encouraged to assimilate, problems begin to brew. Seeds of distrust due to cultural ignorance on both sides blossom into thorny vines of hate and bigotry. These vines spread rapidly and soon engulf the entire area and become the MAJOR issue above all else. A large portion of the American southwest is choked with this right now. Citizens who have resided there for generations see their communities and neighborhoods changing for what they think is the worst literally on a daily basis. Social, economic and financial resources in the already tapped areas are stretched razor thin due to the fears of state and local leaders of being branded a "racist" or xenophobe. Job wages decrease because labor can be hired cheaper. Labor is cheaper because the hirees' cultural lifestyle and aspirations are considerably lower than that of the average local citizen. Failure to push and promote assimilation of the new immigrants allows these immigrants to continue to think that 13 people in a 2 bedroom apartment is somehow "well-off". The fact is that no one in their right mind who is a part of the American culture would ever look upon that as being well off. And we allow these folks to live that way because we don't want to insult anyone or appear insensitive. Big business loves this lower caste attitude because it keeps wages down and profits up. You can't really criticize the business owners. After all, whats the point of being in business if not to make as much money as you can. It is, after all, the American way. Capitalism at its best. And our government leaders push this point of view. Tax breaks put more money into our pockets. Wage breaks put more money into businesse's pockets. The two are cosmetically different in their realities but theoretically they are siamese twins, joined at the hip.

Can you see the revolutions of this train of thought? All things are linked and feed off of each other. And to think, all of this just because Jose and Maria wnat to make "a life" for themselves.

Well, Jon, while I feel for Jose and Maria, I think if you were to ask them, they would much rather prefer to be doing this in their own country. Surely, the expense and danger of the trip they made just to be here, would be a welcome afterthought if all of this was possible in their little hometown.

I have said it before and I will say it again...immigration needs to be completely revisited and reworked for any meaningful change to come about in relation to the problem. America needs strong leaders who are serious and educated about the connection that laxed borders has to the spread of terrorism and the weakning of our society. America also need leaders who can critically analyze the issue and arrive at sound conclusions, not throwing out old tried and unproven attempts like mass legalization. George Bush is a stupid man. I don't know any other way to say it. He lives for the bottom line, not a thorough understanding of the issues. He is not a critical thinker. His inability to think in this manner, unfortunately, affects all of those on his staff who have that skill. And his pathetic drooling on Vicentes boots to sway the Hispanic vote in the US is embarrasing and frankly discrediting the many intelligent Latinos who see him for what he really is. 2004 is going to be a tough year for me. The line up appears to have all the makings of a Jim Carrey movie, if you know what I mean. The problem starts in Mexico, and that is where it needs to be addressed, FIRST. Fox is an arrogant, powerless cronie who, when not making outrageous demands of his mistress GW, is in Mexico laughing all the way to the bank and encouraging his own people to flee their homeland, both in actions and word.

Leadership, my friend, is what America is truly lacking, and has been for a long time. America does not do well without positive, intelligent, well-rounded leadership. Just take a look around...the proof is everywhere. The war on terrorism. the war in Iraq, the failures in Iraq, the failures in the war on terrorism, Osama bin Laden, and Papa Vicente, all require this leadership I speak of. GW can definitely spin with the best of them. But frankly, I stopped playing with tops in the third grade. I think its time GW either joined the adults or stops acting like he's one and goes back to where he can be appreciated. Kindergarten sounds just right.
Jon on 2004-04-22 09:33:00 wrote:

Once again, it’s truly a joy to read one of your posts, I always welcome a conflicting view on this subject and you’ve raised some very valid points to which I can scarcely raise objection. However I do believe that, though I may not be in the forefront of the situation like yourself (Given your job) I do have a clear understanding of the dynamic in border towns. I have been a resident of San Diego for the past 22 years and have seen the changes it has gone through. You pointed out that a lot of people have seen they’re communities change “For what they think is the worst” I completely agree. Nonetheless, it would be fair to point out that “what they think” is an entirely subjective point of view. I have seen most predominantly middle-class white neighborhoods turn into a diverse landscape all of a sudden. And I can understand how this makes people nervous. I don’t condone, however, the mindset that this is because of all the illegal immigration. Nor do I think that white people need to fear other races living in their neighborhoods. As I stated before, I’ve been in California for the last 22 years, and when I got here I remember the same kind of presence by the Latino (I.E. not just Mexicans) community.
Sure, it cannot be argued that this has changed over the course of time. But I want to be clear. I’m not an open border lobbyist! I believe that the border is a necessity right now (Though frankly I dream of a day in which we will all truly be Americans).
It is because of this fact that I believe that for the most part, the fault resides in employers and big corporations, they decide the fate of millions, along with our government. And to defend the fact that they are too breaking the law by employing illegal immigrants (as much as illegal immigrants are by coming illegally across the border) based on the capitalist system is (to me) a bit too convenient. I know they want to be competitive, but I’ll cite an example, There’s a company in L.A. called “American Apparel” I once met the owner in a conference we both attended, and he explained to me how his companies slogan was “Sweatshop Free”, he pays an average wage of 12 Dlls an hour, while other larger companies like GAP pay something like 2 Dlls. In foreign countries, or employ illegal immigrant to exploit them here. The interesting point however, is the fact that American Apparel turns a profit, and has experienced an astounding economic growth, goes to show that you can be fair and also turn a profit, and the interesting point is that he hires American Citizens for the most part, he has people from Mexico, But they are all legal!!!, he legalized them, and works with them because they are the best in their particular field. I think that is capitalism at its best.
You have said many times that the problem starts in Mexico, but I think that due to your experience in immigration, you could also concede that a lot people come from further south.
I believe that the problem lies with all government in the Americas, they always look out for the interests of large corporations (not to mention their own) and in the long run, they care little or not at all what their average citizen goes through. Fact is, speaking of government; you don’t need to worry about a guest worker program. IT’LL NEVER HAPPEN!!! I agree that this particular proposal is to pander to the Hispanic community; I don’t believe that it will ever come to pass. It’s meant to be dangled like a proverbial carrot in the Hispanic community’s face “Vote for me, and I’ll eventually make this a reality” I don’t believe it will ever happen.

And bravo on the fact that someone out there recognizes that most Illegal immigrants would rather stay in their own country!!! I too believe that for the most part these people have only an itch too better themselves, and I too believe that this is the core of the problem. In another thread I posted that I believe an international commission for Trade is needed. In which American countries do commerce with one another using their respective resources the bets way possible, Also providing guidelines for fair wages in the Americas (truly fair), and I still believe that we must remain at the forefront, and truly become a neighbor, Not just Big Brother.

P.S. you really dislike Fox don’t you? I for one have no disrespect for the man (He reminds me a bit of Clinton)
RWH68 on 2004-04-22 20:43:00 wrote:

I appreciate the accolades. Writing about this issue helps keep me sane, if you can believe that!

I, too, lived in San Diego. I worked as a Border Patrol Agent there for 5 years. During that time, I had the opportunity to travel to several different sectors along the entire SW border and experience the local flavor of immigration. I can unequivocally tell you that San Diego was not what I was referring to when speaking about the outrage that exists. Operation Gatekeeper has, for all intents and purposes, shut down the "problem" areas that used to exist. From Otay lakes to IB, the swarms that crossed there have been driven to areas such as El Centro then on to Yuma and Douglas, AZ. Tucson Sector is now leading the nation in illegal entries. This explains the big push in that area, both in manpower and technology. San Diego was an easy fix. The natural barrier of the ocean left the aliens only on direction to go, east. The IB, Chula Vista and Brownfield areas were pretty easy to button up. The landscape was right for the positioning of stationary deterrance points, or X's as we call them in the Patrol. A line of BP Tahoes along a fence line will give pause to the most experienced coyote and would-be border crosser. Increases in manpower in the mid 90's was the first phase of this op. Then came the stadium lighting and camera towers. These three things combined made it practically impossible for aliens and smugglers alike to ply their trade. And all of this against the backdrop of the city of San Diego made an operation like this unobtrusive on the populous and environment. San Diego was already a thriving metropolis so what harm is a few thousand more agents, some architecturally impressive fencing and stadium lights? Not much.....and the benefits to the residents of Ib, Chu and Brownfield far outweighed any negatives. Their quality of life increased exponentially within several months of the undertaking. But the flawed thinking was never more present less than 60 miles to the east. EAST COUNTY, the "hillbilly San Diego" was now receiving the brunt of this new-found peace experienced in San Diego proper. Places like Campo, Boulevard and the IN-Koh-Pah Indian reservation started seeing dramatic increases in alien traffic. Because these locations are situated in the Otay mountain ranges east of San Diego, record numbers of immigrant deaths were also noted due to elemental exposure and scarcity of available respits. This quickly became a black mark on the INS's scorecard, so much so, the Border Patrol was forced to develop a special squad who's sole purpose is search and rescue. BorStar (Border Search, Trauma and Rescue) was developed to address the problem created by the excess alien run-off being forced to move east to cross. Aliens died by the 10's seasonally due to their inability to cross at usual San Diego crossing points. The immigrant rights groups got wind of this and folks like Claudia Smith made a career out of chastising the BP's policies in regards to Operation Gatekeeper.

And then there is the Imperial Valley.

I can speak intelligently about this area as well, having served several details to El Centro and Calexico and having been stationed there as a Senior Patrol Agent. This area is like night and day compared to San Diego. As you know, it is largely agricultural and the land, environment and climate much less forgiving than that of San Diego. In the summer, aliens would walk for miles through superheated desert, only to be found by the BP, mostly dehydrated. The agents as well, were often ill-equipped to handle the terrain. A short supply of "terrain-worthy" vehicles in the late 90's left many stations desperate for serviceable rides. The vehicles that were being used often times were dirty, damaged and most assuredly without AC. Try sitting in the open desert for 8 to 12 hours on a shift in a running vehicle with no AC. Needless to say, it's not a morale booster! And the alien traffic was explosive! Calexico station saw an increase in the early years of over 1000 percent! I once arrested over 250 people, by myself, in a single shift! Multiply that by 50 agents a shift working 3 shifts do the math. And this was a DAILY occourence! We, and America, were getting our asses handed to us.

And the sad, sad, sad reality is that this is still going on today in places like Tucson, Douglas and Naco, AZ. The scary thing is that these operations have been allowed to continue without addressing the fact that they are not curtailing the Mexican flow of illegals. That flow of immigration is like a stream. You can place a rock in the stream to shield a small potion of the stream bed, but the water (in this case, the aliens) will just go around it where the flow is unobstructed. That unobstructed area on our SW border happens to funnel directly into Tucson sector. The public frustration factor that I referred to in my other post is peaking in and around that very area. So much so that private citizens have formed groups such as The American Patrol and Ranch Rescue to do the job they say the American government is unwilling to do. While I don't support or condone these groups, I can understand their reasons and frustration. It's a hotbed just waiting to erupt.

My point is this. So many Americans know so little about what immigration really is. The prevention of illegal entry is just a pinprick in the vast ocean of immigration as a whole. Immigration is, in a large part, a direct result of foreign policy and relations issues. I think that I have made it abundantly clear that our failings as a nation in these areas has only helped to worsen this area of our immigration policy. Simply throwing more manpower and technology at the issue has already proven to only worsen it in other locales. Guest worker programs and Amnesty only sound the clarion that calls even more to come. And incessant pandering to the core of the problem by our nations elected further pushes us, the folks who pay for all of this, deeper into our distrust of and our disdain for, our government.

As for the American businessman that hires the illegal, a simple lesson in immigration law will help you to understand why our current system has no legal way to really put the screws to these guys.

All employers are legally required to "verify" the employability of a prospective hiree. This is accomplished through the execution of what is known as an I-9 form. That form has all the necessary information to prove that a prospective employee is legally "fit to hire". Questions are asked about citizenship or residence in the US. These two things are most important. As you know, anyone can claim to have been born in the US. If the person is physically present in the United States while making this claim, the onus is on the government to prove them wrong. BP Agents who, through years of experience and knowing the right questions to ask, can often root out a false claimer. We call it "breaking the alien". Remember, we are talking about seasoned, experienced agents here. Now, imagine the personnel manager at the WalMart. Do you really think that he possess the necessary skill, training and frankly, drive, to seriously question when an applicant states on his or her form that they were born in the US? I don't think so. An think of the legal ramifications if that person WAS born in the US but had been subjected to an interrogation by Joe the PR guy! No employer in their right mind will take on that type of risk, what with the EEO commission breathing down the necks of all of business. Best leave that type of questioning to the experts. So I guess we should place an Immigration official in every personnel department in the United States, right? Fat chance, bub. That's called "Big Brother" and I, for one think that Ashcroft and his Patriot Poo-Poo's are already trying to rid me of what few rights I STILL have! The real shocker is this, the government NEVER expected the employer to be able to verify the VERACITY of what a prospective employee filled out on the I-9. Just so as the I-9 was completed had the employer "followed the law". I-( inspections were part of the legislation passed in IRCA 1986 (Immigration Reform and Control Act). It stated that the INS would be responsible for doing "spot I-9" inspections to verify the veracity of what was stated on the forms. These inspections require an enormous amount of manpower to really be effective, something that was never really initiated. Sure, most stations had what we called employer sanctions teams. These teams, however, were often only one person who was uasually always needed "on the line due to manpower restrictions and limitations. These days, the employer sanctions units are a thing of the past. If a high profile cases comes around, like the recent WalMart debacle, ICE special agents will jump on it. These types of operations are extremely rare and I wouldn't hold my breath at seeing them increase anytime soon.

So basically, because of the law, employers who hire illegals are literally safe from any real punishment. Only public outrage has served as any modicum of deterrant for this practice. I fear that this may forever be the only thing any employer ever has to fear.

Finally, with the creation of the DHS, the focus has shifted. The INS is no more. No longer does America have a seperate agency devoted strictly to immigration. The Border Patrol has been swallowed up by the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection whose sole purpose is the detection of terrorists and weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and the prevention of their entrance into the country. Illegal immigration is now just an afterthought. Sure, the Border Patrol will continue to arrest, detain and deport illegal aliens, but it will all be under this "Terrorism" banner. Bush will continue to pander to Fox and the Latino vote by making concessions and promising legalization, all in that sickening, "gringoized", bastardization of the Spanish language he uses when making a speech to a largely Spanish-speaking audience. Our law makers will continue to babble their partisan lingo for incessant hours on the Senate and House floors as to how best to reform immigration policy, all the while accomplishing nothing real or tangible in the process. And you and I will continue to gripe, complain, think, discuss and write about the whole convoluted mess. Like I said, it's what keeps me sane. Talk to you soon.
Jon on 2004-04-23 18:46:00 wrote:

Yes, Operation Gatekeeper did put a considerable dent into the smuggling business, in Fact I can state that before it, On the Mexican side you could see scores of people just waiting for the right moment to jump the fence (And I think you can attest to that too) I even remember seeing a little food place near the fence (there must have been good business there). Though I do believe that saying that this somehow made the quality of life in Chula vista and the areas “Affected” by illegal immigration is a bit premature, As I remember, one of the biggest complains persistent in the area (Correct me if I’m wrong, my memory is a bit fuzzy) was illegal immigrants going through private property on their way north, Few if any violent incidents occurred. Not to say however I find illegal immigration somehow acceptable, maybe just understandable. But you did hit the nail on the head However, The problem of illegal immigration is comparably not as strong in the San Ysidro, Chula Vista and San Diego Areas as it once was, yet still, The American standard of living has continued to decrease, It would be far too simple to blame this on a Cheap Labor Boom in the county. The fact of the matter is; there’s little less than a quarter of a million Americans living in the neighboring Tijuana (They are able to afford better living conditions there) and this is without counting the Naturalized citizens, that while they are not supposed to live outside the country, they usually do so in border towns, The Median price of a home in San Diego has skyrocketed to 350 000 dlls, yet there’s hardly a connection to “illegal” immigration, and even legal immigration has a rather dubious effect on housing, for the simple fact that most other cultures, not just in Mexico, but all over the world , tend to sever ties with their parents much later in life than the average American Citizen, the family’s younger generation tends to stay home until 25 sometimes 27 (When I was younger 18 was the standard age to leave home and go seek your fortune) so you would see hoe, while immigration has to have an impact (and it must, those new citizens, and illegal and legal aliens have to live somewhere) it is not the core problem that is consistently lowering the standard of living in America.

It all began with NAFTA, a treaty that while at it’s spirit once looked towards a bright future of true commerce in the Americas, was twisted into a license for large corporations to exploit third world countries, Then the profits that they made weren’t enough, and they had to go to a communist country, where they could pay the citizens even lower wages, Low skilled jobs were retired from America, and then, little by little communities which once had bright horizons were decimated overnight by plant closures and layoffs. Then we began looking for someone to blame. It was, I think, too painful for us to believe our wealthy could sell out our dreams so callously, so then we held on to the belief that the fault lied in the people who were willing to work for less (I.E. in other countries, or Illegally in America) but I believe, as I stated before, that the fault remains with the employer. You did point out that the law is made so the employer has very little control over hiring practices, and that they would not like to anger a specific sector of a community by Racially profiling their prospective employees, however; you will concede that this applies only to those people that have no knowledge of the legal status of their employees. There are far too many people out there that KNOWINGLY hire illegal immigrants to pocket larger profits, fact is, even here in my knack of the woods people that work in the fields, picking and doing various different types of labor, are overwhelmingly (if not completely) composed of Illegal Immigrants, the people that hire them know this. I mean, if the person that asks you for the job can’t speak English, and also looks pretty disheveled there’s a possibility (a high one) he is not a legal citizen of this country. And thus, the problem lies in employers as well as employees. They are also committing a crime, and I believe a more serious one, because they know!!!, they have had the benefit of education and they are far from desperate.

I for one, though, do not hold any ill will towards INS and Border Patrol (the real one, not the fake racist one) I do not think that it is their fault if there are individuals unscrupulous enough to herd poor desperate people through vast ranges of inhospitable land like the ones found in Calexico, that part of the country is hard enough to traverse in an ATV with supplies, let alone on foot and with no supplies to speak of (I’ve been close to that area on a cross country biking trip, and quite frankly I hated it) I just believe that they are doing the job that they were enlisted to do as best they can, and if they are not given enough equipment, or just funding to do so, the situation will continue to get out of hand.
But this for me, is a long way from understanding groups like the AMERICAN BORDER PATROL, or RANCH RESCUE, not to mention SIMCOX’S BORDER MILITIA, I do not believe their actions come from a willingness to do what the government won’t do, but from a dangerous mix of hate, bigotry and boredom, these people go out in camo and armed to look for the “criminal invaders” as they call them, and the result has been that there have been mysterious deaths of immigrants (Caused by weapons I mean) all along the areas patrolled by these groups, deaths which are often ascribed to Coyotes, but I wonder… and I also think there’s a vague element of thrill seeking in their actions, but they are in effect “Hunting” unarmed people, one only ponders how many volunteers there would be for these groups if the Illegal Immigrants came armed and trained like themselves.

Yet your statement “The prevention of illegal entry is just a pinprick in the vast ocean of immigration as a whole” is perhaps one of the more accurate I have found yet in these forums, the real problem comes from a myriad of other factors, such as our own government’s intervention in foreign affairs and markets, and the sanctioning of exploitation (Both in actions and words) in the end, let’s face it; the US is the biggest kid on the block and in my opinion, has never bothered to adjust it’s policies for any specific country, It would be a bit naïve to believe that Bush is somehow trying to conform to a set of demands put forth by Vicente Fox (Who can clamor all he wishes, but in the end it’ll be for naught) Personally, I put more stock in collaboration in the Americas, to a point were we can begin to see what should truly become a model for the rest of the world to follow, Countries fostering each other in the pursuit of their specific resources and strengths. This of course is a Utopia, there is far too much to change (In both ourselves and our neighbors to achieve this) But it is a far more attractive future than pretending we are somehow the center of the Universe. “The leaders of the free world” that’s a good moniker, I like that. I would like a free world to go with it. And I would like to see the interests of the Wealthy Elite take a backseat to decency.

As always you have raised some very ineteresting points in your posts, and i have been forced to see my views form a different perspective. I can only hope to achieve the same.
RWH68 on 2004-04-25 10:48:00 wrote:

The lower standard of living in America depends on what part of America you are talking about. In the southwest, more to the point, San Diego, you can find the gamut of social classes. The closer you get to the border, the more downhill the standard of living goes. I dont see companies like Qualcomm opening up large industrial centers right on the border, even though the land prices there are considerably cheaper than there are near the 5/805 interchanges. These companies and businesses want to surround themselves in affluency in areas like La Jolla and Del Mar, and they are willing to pay the price to do it. Part of it may be because of locational convenience, but part of it is demographic as well. But that's another issue.
I'm just saying that per capita make up of a populous does have something to do with who and what chooses to reside and work there.

I need to correct you on something. You stated that naturalized citizens, legally, can't live in Tijuana. That's not true. A naturalized citizen of the United States is someone who has all the rights and freedoms of a US born citizen. I think you may have been referring to those aliens with permanent residence. "Green Card" holders are not allowed to live outside of the United States for an extended period of time. They have to have a physical address in the US that they call home. You are correct in saying that many of them do live in TJ but come across the border to work. Proving that someone doesn't maintain a physical address in the US is, especially at a hyperbusy port like San Ysidro, nearly impossible. If inspectors were to stop and investigate EVERY green card holder that reguarly presented themselves for inspection, the DHS would have to create a seperate bureau of green card fraud. As you well know, people by the thousands every day funnel through that port of entry into the United States. Sure, the main reason for the officers presence is to inspect and examine all of those wishing to enter. But the sad reality is that a thorough examination of those individuals usually consists of a quick glance at the person bearing the card and wave on through. Any more delay than that would create enormous back-ups, far more than what you currently see now. There are already folks out there who omplain that the wait at the border is too long. God forbid if it got any longer. Besides, there are procedures once a person is suspected of fraud or misrepresentation. Serious, bureaucratic legal procedures for prosecution and removal of the guilty person. This takes time, money and manpower as well. If the DHS today were, by some miracle, able to round up every illegal alien, marriage frauder, green card frauder, visa overstayer, etc., under our current system of law, the government would find itself prosecuting these people for the next century. Most wouldn't live long enough to see their day in court. In the US, we all live by the phrase "innocent until proven guilty." So, until all of these folks get their day in court, they are free to continue as they always have. I don't need to go on to show you how ridiculous this proposal is. It's undoable. The only way you can effect mass enforcement like that is by re-writing the rules and procedure of due process of law. If those get re-eritten, then it will affect all of us, not just immigration related cases. I don't know about you, but I kinda like the idea of someone who wants to charge me with something bearing the burden of proving that I did it. I also like the idea of being give ample time to prepare my defense, my right to be represented by counsel, my right to bail, etc. If we change this integral part just for aliens and immigration, then it has to change for all of us.

Here's immigration law lesson #2 for you. Many people ask why we can't just deport all of those here illegally. Well, there are different forms of illegality within our current immigration system. Let me break it down.

1. Those who are here illegally by entering at a place other than a port of entry. Or, more commonly know as present without admission. These folks are the fence-jumpers everyone knows on the SW border. We already have an expedited removal process for these folks. It's called voluntary return. An alien who chooses voluntary return waives their right to a trial and is immediately returned to Mexico. We can ONLY VR Mexicans. While this is quick and relatively painless for officials, it does nothing to prevent or deter illegal immigration as most folks are back again the next day. Kind of a revolving door if you will.

2. Aliens inadmissable at entry. These are folks who have a visa or are applying for entry into the US, but for some reason, aren't admisssable. The inadmissibility could be for several reasons. Health issues, criminal record, improper documentation, etc. These folks are pretty much turned around right there at the port. No court case is necessary because they haven't "officially" made an entry into the US.

3. Deportable aliens. Here is where it gets interesting (confusing!). You need to understand one thing first, aliens are only deportable after they have been properly inspected and found admissable to the US. This is very important. You can only deport an alien who has been admitted to the US by an Immigration official. All others are removed through various means. Deportation requires a court case and trial and only an Immigartion judge can sign a final order of deportation. An alien can be deported for a myriad of reasons. Here's a example. Let's say Jose came to San Ysidro with his border crosser card. He was inspected by the Immigartion officer and let in for six months to do some vacationing. Jose travels across America seeing the sights and a week before his visa runs out, decides to stay in Boston, Mass. where he has met a nice girl and been offered a job. Jose stays and works for several years and one day is arrested for drunk driving. In the process of their investigation, the Mass. ploice officer suspects that Jose may be an illegal alien. The officer calls the local DHS office and requests that an investigator come down and talk to Jose about his immigration status. The ensuing discussion reveals that Jose is in fact illegal and is subject to deportation.

Jon: I gotta go, Ill continue this later.
Rwh 68 on 2004-04-25 18:03:00 wrote:

Lets continue where I left off.

So, Jose is an illegal alien, but still has state charges to deal with. Usually, if an illegal is encountered in the custody of another law enforcement agency, the DHS will place what is called an I-247 on the subject. This is a retainer that allows the alien to serve his state time and then, upon release from that, be turned over to DHS to begin deportation proceedings. Deportation proceedings are very involved and decisions can go either way. If the alien is single, no kids and still maintains ties in their foreign country, a deportable offense usually results in a final order of deportation. But before the alien can physically be removed, he must be given a chance to gather his valuables and belongings plus any money that may be owed to him by a former employer. The fact is that aliens who have established a life here in the US are usually given 30 days to accomplish this. Now you'd think that all of this gathering would be done under DHS supervision, right? Wrong. The alien is let go and told to get his things and either deport himself (if you can believe that!) or report for repatriation. How many of these guys do you think actually report? Sometimes, the hearing can go the other way. If the alien has kids, a wife and serious roots in the community, he may be given the opportunity to apply for permanent residence. Minor violations such as DUI's, etc, mostly administrative stuff, may not necessarily subject the alien to deportation.

Where am I going with all of this? Just a little insight into the complex world of immigration law. This example is goes to show that our immigration law AND the PROPER ENFORCEMENT of it does not necessarily bring about the ends which most seek, the removal of all illegals from the United States. Remember, a green card is the forst step towards citizenship and citizenship means a possible vote. For anyone to think that lawmakers are going to limit the amount of votes thay may possibly get is absurd. Permanent residence also means taxes. However, most illegals who are hired through normal procedures get taxed as well. That money, while not going to any specific account, still goes into government coffers. To think that the government would limit that as well is equally absurd. The only illegals who are really skirting the system are those hired by fly-by-night companies who pay wages under the table. Most big business, in my opinion, doesn't fall into this category. They didn't get to be big businesses by skirting the system. In one of your other posts you state that the reason the standard of living is lowered is because of some fault of the US government. Again, standards of living are state regulated for the most part. Interference in these matters by the US government takes away from states rights. Remember, we are a republic, a conglomeration of individual states forming a union, a "United States of America". The framers were very careful to only give the feds certain controls over what happened across the board. The rest was left up to the states to deal with. The lowering standard of living in California is a direct result, again, of the demographics of the state and who elects it's local officials and lawmakers. When that demographic weighs heavily with those in favor of immigrant rights, you'll see less and less people put into positions to make changes. Besides, like you state, culture also plays a large part in this as well. It is not unusuall for generations of Latinos to live in the same household for many years after most Americans are encouraged to get out on their own. Family is EVERYTHING to Latinos. I should know, my wife is a true-born-and-bred Mexican from Sinaloa. She left home at age 26, moved to Mexicali, lived there (with her aunt, of course!) and then married me. Had it not been for an offer of a better job in Mexicali, she would STILL be in the house with her biological family. It's not a bad thing, just different. When America in general sees this, it's hard for us to understand that way of life. Most of us can't wait to get out. We go off to college, which may be part of the seperation process that just occurs naturally. Bottom line, it's cultural differences and when these differences are tolerated in multi-cultural communities, there are going to be problems. These problems end up effecting the standard of living and thus create these situations.

You were right on target with NAFTA. It was a great idea in theory, but was destined to fail. My biggest problem with it was that the US government let the corrupt Mexican government spread the wealth as it saw fit. You and I both know that only pockets in high places were lined with the wealth. None of it went to those who most needed or would have benefitted from it. It's kinda like this oil-for-food program in Iraq. You think America would have learned from NAFTA!

Jon, it's all about appearances. America goes to great lenghts to appear democratic and neighborly. "Do the good will of the community.", is a moniker I think we live by. Our good will has been exploited several time in many different ways. I sometimes think, though, we have carved a path we will have a hard time getting out of in the near future. It's like riding a bike, having your wheels fall into a rut, and struggling to get them out. The rut is so deep and defined, that the rut takes over and determines your course and any action by you to get out will surely cause you to crash and burn.

Most ruts, though, have soft spots and low points that might enable you to get out safely.

I think we need now, more than ever, to look for that soft spot. Talk to you soon.

Jon on 2004-04-30 15:27:00 wrote:


Thank you for clearing that up for me, because I did believe for a time that naturalized citizens could not live outside the US, I had mistaken the Naturalization for Legal Residence “Emigrados” as the T.J. people call them.

One thing I think I did not state clearly enough, is that I do not mean that the lowered living standard is a consequence of the last administration of this country, but rather a symptom of the current one. You see what I mean to say is that by adopting the Supply Side Economics Dogma, George W. has in fact doomed the Lower middle class to disappear (Much like what happened in Mexico during Salinas’s regime). In the end, the American people will dearly pay for W’s tax cuts and private wars, and thus their standard of living will suffer. That, along with however the particular state is doing (In my case (California) Poorly)
There is a brief parenthesis I would like to make in reference to the border region, In the last six years it has experienced a sort of cultural and economic renaissance (badly wounded by the terrorist attacks of September 2001), currently a new transit center is being completed in San Ysidro and the Gateway Of The Americas Mall has proved a huge success, new upper middle class housing has been built all over, not to mention that the Gateway Mall itself is only in Phase one of construction.

You make a compelling argument about “voluntary Return” Not to mention, the fact that I too find it hard to believe that they would expect an illegal immigrant to pack up his things and go. However I still differ from you in the accountability one must place on the large corporations, not to mention the large agricultural conglomerates. Not too long ago I was watching a program on PBS, and in it an AG firm admitted that after implementing heavy green-card screenings when accepting prospective workers, the buses he used to move the “Pickers” from a town near the border (How convenient) to the fields are all but empty, save for a few people here and there, (the buses used to fill to capacity, and workers had to be turned away for the day) It was this person that spoke of a special guest worker program in agriculture, He said that the average American citizen would NOT do the job. Now, mind you. I’m not advocating a guest worker program, I believe it to be a slippery slope (one that would eventually bring more illegal immigration to the US, not to mention drain Mexico of the few AG workers it has left), I do however wish to point out the paradox in which these particular couple of nations stand.

There has been a growing lobby for immigration reduction on the side of conservation and sustainability. I for one believe that immigration reduction is only part of the answer in this issue. The amount of waste produced by America is much greater than most of the rest of the world, and to believe that this is somehow tied to immigration is to be a bit naïve. I will however side with them on the issue of conservation. This however is a 2 way street, We cannot build 10 acres of High priced homes and then turn around and blame immigrants for overpopulation. The key question here is how much freedom are we willing to lose for these issues.

1. are WE willing to limit the amount of children WE have?
2. are WE willing to stop being wasteful with OUR natural resources?
3. are WE willing to stop the suburban culture and become a more centralized population, with more URBAN development?

These questions will become key in the years to come.

There is a trust in government in your posts that I admire, though I can’t share it, years ago I was talking to a friend of mine about this (He lives in T.J.) and he, over time has put several things in perspective. He told me:
“You (white Americans) are born into a certain privileged existence, a prosperity you hold very dear, you then associate country with government, since you love your country you have a sort of inborn trust in your government, and believe the system works, We (Mexicans) are the other way around. We are taught from birth to love our country, We associate country with the people, and we hold no illusions about government, we know it’s corrupt, we therefore are able to find corruption in politicians all over the world.
What to you looks justified to us looks rather dubious”
I was blown away by this. I have never thought about it that way. And the incredible thing is He was right!!! Americans tend to think that the government is always looking out for them (And the rest of the world, cause we are such nice people) But in truth, we’ve drifted away from what this country was based on, a healthy distrust of Government and its policies.
What I saw as good intentions on the part of the US government he saw as manipulation.
(The tuna block, The produce block, so forth) He saw American government as protectors of American industrialist interests, not to mention sometimes, as plain old greedy and corrupt people. I would often visit his house, and talk with him and his wife and for hours we would debate about something that to me seemed rather harmless but to them seemed like America bullying the rest of the world, for example Cuba (Don’t believe me? ask your wife and her family what they think, and why, )
I say this only because you seem to think that corrupt politicians in Mexico are somehow the only ones pulling the strings in this game. I believe that to be a grave mistake.

You see, in a way I think that The American Government believes that weaker countries around it are sort of an insurance policy, really. They have miscalculated the impact that a lot of actions (All over the continent) would have; we are dealing with part of the consequences now. If we consciously hinder a country’s economic growth in favor of our interests in that country the profit will not compensate the eventual loss. We will deal with that much later not to mention our children.

You see, I also believe it’s all about appearances, but in reality I think the US has taken advantage of other countries weaknesses over the years, while still trying to appear neighborly (But only to it’s people) the perception of the US in other countries in America and Overseas is very different. I still believe in America but I think that fundamental change has to take place for this issue to reach a resolution. I don’t think a massive deportation is the answer (Let alone feasible) nor is mass legalization anymore reasonable. I think that the key lies in partnership in America. Unification to the betterment of all, we have the resources right now, but no empire lasts forever and in the end history will judge us by the way we handle this situation, which has usually spelled the end of most world reigns.
I guess the question is. Can we step down and become a leader rather than a ruler?
1800BanIllegals on 2004-05-01 20:47:00 wrote:
And while you people babble your psuedo intellectual gibberish, how many illegals have entered America?????
on 2004-05-04 08:45:00 wrote:
RWH68 on 2004-05-04 08:45:00 wrote:

I agree with you on the GW supply side thing. George Bush has effectively killed the lower middle class. But I'm unsure what you mean about "private" wars. I choose to believe that Americans can see through all of the patriotic, weapons-of-mass-destruction, terrorism crap that GW is spouting about Iraq. This war is about a power base in the middle east. There is a website that I think you would be interested in. It's the "Project for the New American Century" or PNAC. Put "PNAC" into the search block of yahoo and it will pull up the website listing for you. Go to it and read its mission statement. Also, take a look at who, in 1996-97 when it was created, is on its list of members. I think you'll be suprised to see some names of people who hold high and influential positions in the current administration. Really read what their ideas are about " the United States' global responsibilities" are and many things will fall into place. At least they did for me. This brings me to my next point.

You say that there is a "trust in government" in my posts that you admire but cant share. Well, just for the record, I don't trust my government. Hell, I work for them and can see on a daily basis what their true intentions are. I have stated in all of my posts that it HAS NEVER been the governments intention to stop illegal immigration. I also have stated that it is obvious by the LACK of leadership that we have continued to keep Mexico in the same place it has always been: corrupt and unwilling to accept their share of the responsibility for our immigration problems. Like I have said before, if we had true leadership in the White House I think pressure could be applied to that country to stave off some of the mass exodus by simply offering their own people more opportunity. You are correct in saying that America allows this to maintain the "advantage". As long as Mexico is economically and politically weak, America remains strong. The sad fact about all of this is that these countries allow this phenomenon to perpetuate. I refuse to believe that these foreign leaders are not students of history and can't see this simple, plain truth. But, the REALITY is that we have a trump card. We ARE the richest, most powerful nation on the globe and can be very influential in getting what we want. Foreign aid, protection, etc. are attractive concessions to operating how "we" want you to. The balance of power globally must always be tilted in our favor. Gw and his cronies are seeing to that every day.

This puts me in a bit of a quagmire, to use an overkilled phrase. That type of influence is much like a security blanket. I'd much rather we be in charge than someone else. You see, I'm still an American and like knowing that my country remains at the "top of the food chain", so to speak. This is why I understand the things we do. I do feel a sense of urgency that some of these policies, as you have stated, are eventually going to backfire on us or on our children. You were correct when you said that all countries who have enjoyed global reign eventually fall. The Romans are a perfect example. They lost sight, however, of what it meant to maintain that type of power, and eventually self-destructed. I think that, without educated foresight and hindsight, the same will happen to us. As I have stated before, GW is a stupid man. He doesn't have the depth of vision to necessary to see beyond his bottom line. The real unfortunate thing is that those intelligent people he has surrounded himself with are also power mongers. Throw the phenomenon of terrorism into the mix, and you have a situation that is ripe for these kind of people.

The war on terrorism is nothing but a rally cry for patriotism. It was a convenient way of gaining public support for a war that neoconservatives have wanted to wage since the mid 90's. (frankly, I'm rather skeptical about the whole 9-11 tragedy, but that's another discussion!) All I will say is: How convenient! To think that something like this happened when it did, how it did and on this particular watch, very (almost too) peculiar. We CAN see how it backseated almost every pressing issue before 9-11, including illegal immigration. It gives me serious pause.

I'm going to take this time to respond to 1800BanIllegals post:

"And while you people babble your psuedo intellectual gibberish, how many illegals have entered America?????"

Well, 1800, I'm sure the number is up from the previous day. What I want to know is that while we have been "babbling" have YOU learned anything? Or, are you STILL the racist, bigoted knuckle-dragger that has nothing better to than to criticize other peoples views? Remember, this is the "Thinking Man's Debate". If you want to concern yourself with the number of illegals crossing the border each day and not with the reasons WHY, I hear Civil Homeland Defense has an opening (especially since Chris Simcox will be risking his life if he continues to patrol with Civil Homeland defense because he's been barred from owning a firearm). You need to get a grip, bro, and realize that CHD, Ranch Rescue, the American Border patrol, and even the US Border Partol will never stop illegal immigration until the laws are changed and the source is addressed. "Enforce the laws on the books!" is what people like you are famous (read:INFAMOUS) for saying. It's such a superficial, uneducated and sophmoric statement that it boggles the mind. This discussion is for folks who want to understand why they keep coming and why we (our government) seems to do nothing about it.
1800BanIllegals on 2004-05-06 18:13:00 wrote:

A Mexican is born in the US every 30 seconds. A Mexican swims the Rio Grande every 45 seconds. They are a fully loaded weapon of mass destruction inside this country, accompanied by an armada of immigration lawyers and fifth columnist illegal alien cheerleaders.

How to counter our enemy:

1. A $1000 bounty shuld be placed for arrest of any illegal alien in the form of a Federal income tax credit. A $10,000 bounty should be placed on anyone who employs illegal aliens. After a few employers are hauled off in front of video cameras, the odds of an illegal alien finding a job will be be greatly reduced.

2. A nationwide no questions asked "shoot to kill" policy should be instituted for illegal border crossers. Bring a Mexican Consulate officer to collect the carcasses of the first 2500 Latinos terminated. The word will spread instantly all over Mexico.

3. Demand reparations for America's costs for dealing with illegal Mexican immigration, i.e., deportation fees, medical care, encarceration fees, and social service expenditures . By most estimates this would amount to 600,000,000,000 US dollars. Failure to pay on schedule would result in nuclear strikes on major Mexican cities until full payment is made.

It's that simple!!!!!!!
Jon on 2004-05-07 15:49:00 wrote:

yuo're a witless buffoon with no grasp of reality, the sad thing is that in the end you only hurt your children.

by the way, if you're born in the us you're a citizen.

it's that simple. you can go now.
Migra Girl on 2004-05-10 23:37:00 wrote:
This web page is ending

The "discussion" is done;

Jon silenced all voices

But what has he won???
keko on 2004-12-06 00:22:00 wrote:
What an interesting discussion (Jon and rwh68) congratulations!. Sincerely: a Mexican Engineer (don´t worry, I work in Mexico!)
immigrant on 2005-02-15 13:10:00 wrote:
i have read some thing in this page that have made very upset.
every human being need to have the right to came and go as they please. is that not the law? now you may say. If you go through the legal way to get in to the country you woulod be just fine right. Well if you go to the 3th world countries and see what some have to go throught to get a visa you wold understand why a lot of people came to US the illegal way. To get a visa that permit you to work in the US you must have a speacil ability of some kind, be very well aducated have master or a Doctor's degree in some area. Now ask you self this question. Why would some with that kind of education need to go to another country? here is the answer.
THEY DON"T. That't why they make those requierments so that only few of us can came in to the country. Whem a Family man see his family go hungre not able to send his childrem to school not able to get any thing done in own place of birth, he will do what ever it takes to support his family. So he is faced with two options, start stiling or look for a new place to go to.
US a dream land i love this place, i do agree that a lot of bad people have made in to country. But also thing about the people that have being born here that does not follow the law. there are 2 kind of immigrates the one that come to be some body and contrubuit to countries grouth, and other that see this place as free ride.
if the goverment come up with a way that distinguishes them, we would see some people against immigrants.
there are people that think immigrantes are taking they're opportunities away. well i call those people laze. there are opportunities for every one in this country, all you need to do is get of your ass and go get it.
Don't blame us for it. blame your self.
so thing again before you thik any thing about immigrantes. GET YOUR FACTS STRAT.
Steve on 2005-02-17 00:12:00 wrote:
To Immigrant:
A man should have the ways and means to support a family before having one. Not have a litter of kids and then say, gee how am I going to support them. It's called family planning, not having kids then saying i'll now have to break laws to feed them because I can't think ahead of time. Or in other words thinking with the wrong head. Please work on your spelling
BRAD on 2005-02-17 10:21:00 wrote:
Immigrant - yes, learn to spell. you might gain some credibility.

Bigoted Racist Against Diversity
nicole on 2005-03-20 00:25:00 wrote:
jon, you can snap back at me how you like, but you know it too, you havent been laid in years..and dont act like you dont know what k.y. is...take my advice it will relieve your stress
Steve on 2005-03-20 01:30:00 wrote:
Yeah, I agree.
Jon on 2005-03-21 12:51:00 wrote:
“nicole on 2005-03-20 00:25:00 wrote: jon, you can snap back at me how you like, but you know it too, you havent been laid in years..and dont act like you dont know what k.y. is...take my advice it will relieve your stress”

Really? Wow, I never heard such a string of hilarious stupidity, thanks for that, like you said, it’s a good thing you’re still in school, else I’d be tempted to think less of you.
“snap” back at you? You weren’t even in my radar kiddo! You came here all trying to call my attention, talking about me, no facts, nothing disproving anything I have said, and your only defense is “you haven’t been laid and you know it”? ha!!!! Might work in grade school (And with grade school minds huh Earl?) but not here.

Do yourself a favor and grow a brain little one, you still have time unlike the rest of these losers.

Maybe not.

: )


don't soil this thread with your stupidity.
Triple K on 2005-03-21 14:27:00 wrote:
Nicole - Congragulations. You scored a direct hit!

Now I wonder if he's EVER gotten laid!!!!
Steve on 2005-03-22 00:39:00 wrote:
Yeah, they are called anchor babies. Once one is born here it opens the flood gates to the whole damn family. Oh yeah,
Welcome back and hope you enjoyed your mini vacation. Went fast didn't it?
Earl Turner on 2005-03-22 05:41:00 wrote:
Thank you for your well wishes, Steve. It went by too fast for me. The wife and kids had fun, too!
ET on 2005-09-22 13:18:00 wrote:
Jon isnt worth anyone's time.
Jon on 2006-01-19 18:02:00 wrote:
Yeah "ET"

I'm kind of glad that you and "steve" are exchanging salutations in this thread.

not one of you can actually contradict any of the statements here, no facts no "debate" shall we say.

funny in a website with "debate" right in the name.

in fact, if i remember correctly someone here told "I don't care about your facts and figures"

ahahahahaha Ironic, yet they will manipulate "facts and figures" to try and make their case.

you're all lost causes.

but you're still hilarious,LOL
Kirk Palayan on 2006-05-18 23:10:00 wrote:
Illegal Immigrants pay their Taxes, work for below minimum wages and we take them for granted.
Travers on 2006-05-19 18:19:00 wrote:
Kirk: Where is your proof? Do you expect us to believe your ludicrous pontifications or do you have substantiating evidence to validate your statements?

Kirk Palayan on 2006-05-19 23:08:00 wrote:
Where is your arguement and proof. That's what I thouth now shut the H-E-L-L up asshole.
Travers on 2006-05-21 23:13:00 wrote:
Hey monkey vomit Kirk. Thank you for your intelligent answer.

I thought you were bluffing. Now I KNOW you're bluffing!!

: 0 )
Kirk Palayan on 2006-05-22 20:03:00 wrote:
You still have not provided me with a awnser. In the Marches, they prove their points, we can't live without them. As I walk down Sunset, I could not find one store open. I traveled to every street in LA to find a store to buy my grocery, but none was open. That night I wacthed the news to see that many shops and stores in the US were force to close. The Sprit of Cesar Chavez is with them.
Ms Taletha on 2006-05-23 12:49:00 wrote:
I want to fly the Mexican flag upside down.

I want to play the race card as an Anglo Saxon Christian heterosexual female.

I want a $200 picture phone.

I want George W. Bush to live in my apartment complex for one week.

I want to know how cleaning toilets and mowing lawns is something America can't do without.
Please note that the comments written by visitors to this site are NOT the views of the webmaster. We welcome all viewpoints in the hopes to avoid "preaching to the choir" and if you are interested in our actual views, read our below essay.

Our View

    Increased immigration is important for both the economic and spiritual well being of the United States. Immigrants often take jobs which would otherwise go unfilled and increase overall productivity. Empirically, the United States has recently undergone a long period of increased immigration and has an economy which may have it's ups and downs, but is still the envy of the world, with significant immigrant contributions in the prominent high technology sector. The most convincing argument against immigration is usually their effect on wages, but current economic policy is already focused on fighting this wage pressure to reduce the threat of inflation and subsequent depression. As such, the chief argument against becomes an argument for increased immigration. Most importantly, let us not forget that these immigrants are people who simply want a better life, just like our parents and grandparents, who all came to the United States in similar situations. Helping them in their quest for a better life makes us rich in ways which transcend money.

    Those who argue against immigration often make seemingly common sense arguments. Arguments are made as to immigration causing increased use of schools, infrastructure, and housing. This certainly makes sense on it's face, but it hinges on the assumption that there is a finite amount of housing, when in reality, we can build as many houses as we want, assuming we have the needed labor, and immigrants often provide this labor. Immigration activist Yeh Ling-Ling writes that "Almost every week, we hear about thousands of our workers losing their jobs. Yet in 1992, more than 750,000 legal immigrants of working age were admitted to this country". This hinges on the idea that there are a finite amount of jobs, when this is clearly dependent on the health of the economy, to which immigrants contribute. She also asks, "Where are we going to find tax dollars to educate the additional thousands of immigrant children we invite to this country every year?". This hinges on the idea that there are finite amounts of tax dollars, when in reality, these dollars depend on the workers who pay their taxes, including these new immigrants. These are simplistic responses to simplistic arguments. In reality, the contribution of immigrants to society is hard to quantify, but it is important to realize that arguments which hinge on the myth of "finite resources" are rhetorical and ill suited to determining the real impact of immigration. Studies designed to determine the real impact of immigration on the economy differ in their results, but the United States is a country of immigrants and happens to be the strongest country in the world. Is this a coincidence?

    The lone resources which are indeed finite are environmental, but I cannot see how a truly responsible environmental organization can be anti-immigration. The environment is a global issue and it is universally agreed that with increased wealth comes increased awareness of the environment. As such, it is far better for the global environment to move people from low wage to high wage countries. Indeed, the United States has lost immense amounts of forest and biodiversity during it's industrialization, but recently has begun to reverse this trend as increased wealth has allowed us to focus on environmental issues.

    Arguments against immigration are often anecdotal and do have some basis. In certain urban centers of the country, new immigrants represent a disproportional amount of the population, often before they adjust enough to make up for it with contributions to the tax base. As such, it is natural for those who have experienced this to have negative attitudes towards immigration. Still it is important to realize the anecdotal nature of these experiences. We should work to alleviate these situations, but let's not lose sight of the big picture. Worse, some activists see reduced immigration as a necessity to reduce ethnic tensions. Legislating reduced ethnic diversity as a solution to racial tension hints of arguments for ethnic cleansing.

    So far, I have argued that we need immigrants in order to increase our economic well being, but I think the most important of arguments is a spiritual one. Simply put, this is a chance to help others and in a society as individualistic as the US, we need to take advantage of these chances. Few Americans can imagine the poverty that many immigrants are escaping. Given our relative economic strength, it's pretty clear that we need immigrants from a macroeconomic level, but we need them even more spiritually. We are in clear danger of becoming an isolationist, every man for himself, society. Remember the lessons of Ebenezer Scrooge or It's a Wonderful Life. If we turn away those in need, we will be poorer for it, both economically and spiritually.

    If you have an opinion on this, please respond by posting something.  I am certainly open to debate and willing to entertain the conclusion that I may be mistaken in some way.  One reason I felt that this essay needed to be written was because of the singularity of points of view which was being aired in this debate and I would not want to make the same mistake.  Posts will be screened, but only to weed out anything abusive, profane, or unrelated, and I welcome conflicting views. 

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